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	Commentaires sur : The present and future green hydrogen production cost	</title>
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	<description>Réflexions sur la science, le climat et l&#039;énergie</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 21 Sep 2022 08:46:07 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		Par : Emmanuel Simon		</title>
		<link>https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-17003</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Emmanuel Simon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Sep 2022 08:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.science-climat-energie.be/?p=15670#comment-17003</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[En réponse à &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-16887&quot;&gt;Robert Adams&lt;/a&gt;.

Since Mr. Robert Adams likes the &quot;inconsiderate and somehow biaised&quot; use of H2, let&#039;s try to vary our sources and opinions?

Of course, taking into account elements such as &quot;end-to-end useability &#038; profitability&quot; of the whole process. So, ultimately, the KEY economic feasibility that will predict the sustainability of the idea... beyond its current political hype (that&#039;s to say european =&#062; mostly german, the french remaining gentle followers)! 

Another SOURCE (sorry, here in French) :  « « Aperçus sur l’hydrogène » »   
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Publié le 25 avril 2021  Auteur : Frédéric LIVET
[[  Résumé :
     L’Hydrogène est aujourd’hui un produit industriel bien maîtrisé comme produit chimique dans la fabrication des engrais ou le traitement des pétroles. Comme on espère l’utiliser pour pallier l’intermittence des renouvelables, il a été récemment promu comme un vecteur essentiel dans l’économie de l’énergie. Si on entend s’affranchir du nucléaire pilotable, il convient d’en produire de grandes quantités pour générer de l’électricité dans les périodes sans vent et sans soleil.
     Dans cet aperçu, les méthodes de production sont d’abord discutées. Sans émissions de CO2, l’électrolyse s’impose, malgré son coût de revient élevé, mais le gaz reste dans la course si le CO2 est stocké. Malheureusement, le cycle électricité-hydrogène-électricité a un faible rendement (30 % ?). C’est encore pire si on passe par l’intermédiaire du méthane, gaz « vert » obtenu à partir de l’hydrogène (PtG).
     Il convient alors de valoriser davantage les autres utilisations de l’hydrogène. On montre que la première envisagée, l’automobile, semble peu adaptée quand on la compare aux batteries électriques. Maintenant, les recherches se tournent plutôt vers les poids lourds, les trains et l’aéronautique, où le remplacement des hydrocarbures émetteurs de CO2 est envisagé.
     Cependant, le remplacement des hydrocarbures par l’hydrogène nécessite une grande quantité d’électricité, énergie coûteuse et de grande qualité. Or, dans le même temps, il existe sur le marché d’importantes disponibilités en gaz naturel. Et le développement de l’hydrogène, s’il doit être rapide, sera probablement dépendant du gaz naturel, qui, en l’absence de capture, est un gros émetteur de CO2 (presque le tiers des émissions françaises).

     On peut donner dans un tableau le résumé de la situation actuelle et de l’influence du prix du CO2 (avec l’électricité à 70 €/MWh, le charbon à 60 $/t et le gaz à 20 $/MWh, on confond $ et €)
Usefull table to be read there ...

https://www.sauvonsleclimat.org/fr/base-documentaire/apercus-sur-l-hydrogene
...........................................................................
Dear Rob Adams : Let&#039;s read this long article ? 
(Though, GAS is here to stay, wathever the silly IPCC/GIEC ideologies) !

Greetings, from the &quot;Capital of the EU&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>En réponse à <a href="https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-16887">Robert Adams</a>.</p>
<p>Since Mr. Robert Adams likes the « inconsiderate and somehow biaised » use of H2, let&rsquo;s try to vary our sources and opinions?</p>
<p>Of course, taking into account elements such as « end-to-end useability &amp; profitability » of the whole process. So, ultimately, the KEY economic feasibility that will predict the sustainability of the idea&#8230; beyond its current political hype (that&rsquo;s to say european =&gt; mostly german, the french remaining gentle followers)! </p>
<p>Another SOURCE (sorry, here in French) :  « « Aperçus sur l’hydrogène » » <br />
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =<br />
Publié le 25 avril 2021  Auteur : Frédéric LIVET<br />
[[  Résumé :<br />
     L’Hydrogène est aujourd’hui un produit industriel bien maîtrisé comme produit chimique dans la fabrication des engrais ou le traitement des pétroles. Comme on espère l’utiliser pour pallier l’intermittence des renouvelables, il a été récemment promu comme un vecteur essentiel dans l’économie de l’énergie. Si on entend s’affranchir du nucléaire pilotable, il convient d’en produire de grandes quantités pour générer de l’électricité dans les périodes sans vent et sans soleil.<br />
     Dans cet aperçu, les méthodes de production sont d’abord discutées. Sans émissions de CO2, l’électrolyse s’impose, malgré son coût de revient élevé, mais le gaz reste dans la course si le CO2 est stocké. Malheureusement, le cycle électricité-hydrogène-électricité a un faible rendement (30 % ?). C’est encore pire si on passe par l’intermédiaire du méthane, gaz « vert » obtenu à partir de l’hydrogène (PtG).<br />
     Il convient alors de valoriser davantage les autres utilisations de l’hydrogène. On montre que la première envisagée, l’automobile, semble peu adaptée quand on la compare aux batteries électriques. Maintenant, les recherches se tournent plutôt vers les poids lourds, les trains et l’aéronautique, où le remplacement des hydrocarbures émetteurs de CO2 est envisagé.<br />
     Cependant, le remplacement des hydrocarbures par l’hydrogène nécessite une grande quantité d’électricité, énergie coûteuse et de grande qualité. Or, dans le même temps, il existe sur le marché d’importantes disponibilités en gaz naturel. Et le développement de l’hydrogène, s’il doit être rapide, sera probablement dépendant du gaz naturel, qui, en l’absence de capture, est un gros émetteur de CO2 (presque le tiers des émissions françaises).</p>
<p>     On peut donner dans un tableau le résumé de la situation actuelle et de l’influence du prix du CO2 (avec l’électricité à 70 €/MWh, le charbon à 60 $/t et le gaz à 20 $/MWh, on confond $ et €)<br />
Usefull table to be read there &#8230;</p>
<p><a href="https://www.sauvonsleclimat.org/fr/base-documentaire/apercus-sur-l-hydrogene" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.sauvonsleclimat.org/fr/base-documentaire/apercus-sur-l-hydrogene</a><br />
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;<br />
Dear Rob Adams : Let&rsquo;s read this long article ?<br />
(Though, GAS is here to stay, wathever the silly IPCC/GIEC ideologies) !</p>
<p>Greetings, from the « Capital of the EU »</p>
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		<title>
		Par : Samuel Furfari		</title>
		<link>https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-16981</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Samuel Furfari]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Sep 2022 14:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.science-climat-energie.be/?p=15670#comment-16981</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[En réponse à &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-16887&quot;&gt;Robert Adams&lt;/a&gt;.

Our article was based on the prices (natural gas and others) in effect at the time. You cannot expect the articles to be updated every time the price changes. Moreover, the price of gas cannot - should not! - remain at this level. It will be unbearable for everyone. Huge investments to provide enough gas to replace Russian gas are already underway and therefore the price of gas will return to a more reasonable level, as it was before the war. Moreover, these new investments are here to stay and the supply contracts to get a share of the new production will be forced on Germany and other countries by long-term contracts. So natural gas is here to stay. Gas for blue hydrogen production will therefore be available the day there is a market for hydrogen as a fuel. For the time being, this market does not exist, except for a few niches.
The efficiency of electrolysis depends above all on thermodynamics: the theoretical maximum efficiency of the stack is 75% but that of the complete installation is lower, as you can see in our article which was just presented at CIGRE 2022 the last week of August (the article was written in April). The article is available for purchase at www.e-cigre.org.
For the other questions, it is a matter of believing in the research conducted at the European Commission&#039;s Joint Research Centre in Ispra since 1959.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>En réponse à <a href="https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-16887">Robert Adams</a>.</p>
<p>Our article was based on the prices (natural gas and others) in effect at the time. You cannot expect the articles to be updated every time the price changes. Moreover, the price of gas cannot &#8211; should not! &#8211; remain at this level. It will be unbearable for everyone. Huge investments to provide enough gas to replace Russian gas are already underway and therefore the price of gas will return to a more reasonable level, as it was before the war. Moreover, these new investments are here to stay and the supply contracts to get a share of the new production will be forced on Germany and other countries by long-term contracts. So natural gas is here to stay. Gas for blue hydrogen production will therefore be available the day there is a market for hydrogen as a fuel. For the time being, this market does not exist, except for a few niches.<br />
The efficiency of electrolysis depends above all on thermodynamics: the theoretical maximum efficiency of the stack is 75% but that of the complete installation is lower, as you can see in our article which was just presented at CIGRE 2022 the last week of August (the article was written in April). The article is available for purchase at <a href="http://www.e-cigre.org" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.e-cigre.org</a>.<br />
For the other questions, it is a matter of believing in the research conducted at the European Commission&rsquo;s Joint Research Centre in Ispra since 1959.</p>
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		<title>
		Par : Robert Adams		</title>
		<link>https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-16887</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Adams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Sep 2022 07:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.science-climat-energie.be/?p=15670#comment-16887</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;This should be compared to the €13/MWh of the EU gas market in 2020.&quot;
 Wow  how that price has dated – 7 months after the invasion of Ukraine, it&#039;s still waaaaaay over that! Also, the constant overuse of the word &quot;mantra&quot; is extremely patronising, as though it&#039;s some kind of esoteric chanting. The U.S. DOE has a &quot;moonshot&quot; goal of $US1 for 1 kg of hydrogen with 10 years. That&#039;s not a &quot;mantra&quot;, that&#039;s the aim of the richest and most powerful country on Earth.  2050? That will be at least 2 decades after the &quot;&quot;claimed mantra value for production of around €1/kg H₂, by 2050, &quot;.
Electrolyser breakthroughs are coming and they will come fast.
here&#039;s one you may have missed: Now efficiency up to 95%, so the 75% in the article will soon be a legacy percentage:
https://www.uow.edu.au/media/2022/breakthrough-opens-door-to-low-cost-green-hydrogen.php
A Green H2 storage breakthrough:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/eureka-moment-as-australian-researchers-make-hydrogen-storage-breakthrough/
And the need to be close to large sources of clean water? Well...
https://reneweconomy.com.au/researchers-pluck-green-hydrogen-from-the-air-without-any-need-for-liquid-water/
Green H2 is unstoppable and Europe is hungry for it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>« This should be compared to the €13/MWh of the EU gas market in 2020. »<br />
 Wow  how that price has dated – 7 months after the invasion of Ukraine, it&rsquo;s still waaaaaay over that! Also, the constant overuse of the word « mantra » is extremely patronising, as though it&rsquo;s some kind of esoteric chanting. The U.S. DOE has a « moonshot » goal of $US1 for 1 kg of hydrogen with 10 years. That&rsquo;s not a « mantra », that&rsquo;s the aim of the richest and most powerful country on Earth.  2050? That will be at least 2 decades after the «  »claimed mantra value for production of around €1/kg H₂, by 2050, « .<br />
Electrolyser breakthroughs are coming and they will come fast.<br />
here&rsquo;s one you may have missed: Now efficiency up to 95%, so the 75% in the article will soon be a legacy percentage:<br />
<a href="https://www.uow.edu.au/media/2022/breakthrough-opens-door-to-low-cost-green-hydrogen.php" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.uow.edu.au/media/2022/breakthrough-opens-door-to-low-cost-green-hydrogen.php</a><br />
A Green H2 storage breakthrough:<br />
<a href="https://reneweconomy.com.au/eureka-moment-as-australian-researchers-make-hydrogen-storage-breakthrough/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://reneweconomy.com.au/eureka-moment-as-australian-researchers-make-hydrogen-storage-breakthrough/</a><br />
And the need to be close to large sources of clean water? Well&#8230;<br />
<a href="https://reneweconomy.com.au/researchers-pluck-green-hydrogen-from-the-air-without-any-need-for-liquid-water/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://reneweconomy.com.au/researchers-pluck-green-hydrogen-from-the-air-without-any-need-for-liquid-water/</a><br />
Green H2 is unstoppable and Europe is hungry for it.</p>
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		<title>
		Par : S. Furfari		</title>
		<link>https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-14796</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[S. Furfari]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2022 19:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.science-climat-energie.be/?p=15670#comment-14796</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[En réponse à &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-14702&quot;&gt;Robert Adams&lt;/a&gt;.

@ Robert Adams :
Thank you for your reaction. Two points, but there are others.
Board members do not take DIFs on the basis of transitional prices because they know that these prices will not last.
If the price of oil or gas goes up, ALL prices go up as well because EVERYTHING depends on fossil fuels.
Anyway, I am not an investor and if people are willing to invest, they can. I am not stopping them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>En réponse à <a href="https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-14702">Robert Adams</a>.</p>
<p>@ Robert Adams :<br />
Thank you for your reaction. Two points, but there are others.<br />
Board members do not take DIFs on the basis of transitional prices because they know that these prices will not last.<br />
If the price of oil or gas goes up, ALL prices go up as well because EVERYTHING depends on fossil fuels.<br />
Anyway, I am not an investor and if people are willing to invest, they can. I am not stopping them.</p>
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		Par : Robert Adams		</title>
		<link>https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-14702</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Adams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jun 2022 01:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.science-climat-energie.be/?p=15670#comment-14702</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re the cost of grey hydrogen currently in UK due to Putin – The cost of production of grey hydrogen in the UK has increased from $US1.9 per kg in April to $US8 per kg in October, while the cost of green hydrogen remained unchanged at $US4.5 per kg. Yes, if/when gas prices drop then grey hydrogen price will drop too, but who knows when? It&#039;s a fact that prices and installations of solar and wind have dropped far more in cost and increased much faster in installations over the last 10 years that just about anybody predicted (although Greenpeace were closer than IEA etc, even they underestimated). Now as battery prices have also dropped rapidly, it would be a very rational conclusion to predict that green hydrogen (as it will be produced from cheaper and cheaper solar and wind), will also drop faster in price, and grow faster in quantity than most people predict. An example of how quickly the price predictions are moving: In January 2020, Bloomberg predicted that Green Hydrogen would be competitive with fossil fuel hydrogen and could replace gas by 2050 Just a few months later, in April 2020, they reduced that 2050 target by 10 years to 2040. A year later, in April 2021, they reduced that 2040 target by 10 years to 2030. So in the space of just 15 months, they have brought forward their cost competitive timeline by a huge 20 years! Would anybody really be surprised if that 2030 target is actually hit even earlier? If so, they would be ignoring the experience of solar, wind and batteries over the last 10 years, and the fact that governments all over the world are racing to become &quot;green hydrogen superpowers&quot;. Any gamblers out there want to bet against it? (P.S. I&#039;m not a licensed bookmaker sorry).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re the cost of grey hydrogen currently in UK due to Putin – The cost of production of grey hydrogen in the UK has increased from $US1.9 per kg in April to $US8 per kg in October, while the cost of green hydrogen remained unchanged at $US4.5 per kg. Yes, if/when gas prices drop then grey hydrogen price will drop too, but who knows when? It&rsquo;s a fact that prices and installations of solar and wind have dropped far more in cost and increased much faster in installations over the last 10 years that just about anybody predicted (although Greenpeace were closer than IEA etc, even they underestimated). Now as battery prices have also dropped rapidly, it would be a very rational conclusion to predict that green hydrogen (as it will be produced from cheaper and cheaper solar and wind), will also drop faster in price, and grow faster in quantity than most people predict. An example of how quickly the price predictions are moving: In January 2020, Bloomberg predicted that Green Hydrogen would be competitive with fossil fuel hydrogen and could replace gas by 2050 Just a few months later, in April 2020, they reduced that 2050 target by 10 years to 2040. A year later, in April 2021, they reduced that 2040 target by 10 years to 2030. So in the space of just 15 months, they have brought forward their cost competitive timeline by a huge 20 years! Would anybody really be surprised if that 2030 target is actually hit even earlier? If so, they would be ignoring the experience of solar, wind and batteries over the last 10 years, and the fact that governments all over the world are racing to become « green hydrogen superpowers ». Any gamblers out there want to bet against it? (P.S. I&rsquo;m not a licensed bookmaker sorry).</p>
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		<title>
		Par : Dr Himmat Singh		</title>
		<link>https://www.science-climat-energie.be/2021/07/16/the-present-and-future-green-hydrogen-production-cost/#comment-12131</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dr Himmat Singh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2022 09:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.science-climat-energie.be/?p=15670#comment-12131</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A good article on pricing of green hydrogen.
Pl a soft copy
I Dr Himmat Singh Is interested in this subject
I have been Scientist &#039;G&#039; and professor and retired
My email is  drhimmas@gmail.com
Shall be thankful   for your response

Dr Himmat Singh
DehraDun ,India]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good article on pricing of green hydrogen.<br />
Pl a soft copy<br />
I Dr Himmat Singh Is interested in this subject<br />
I have been Scientist &lsquo;G&rsquo; and professor and retired<br />
My email is  <a href="mailto:drhimmas@gmail.com">drhimmas@gmail.com</a><br />
Shall be thankful   for your response</p>
<p>Dr Himmat Singh<br />
DehraDun ,India</p>
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